Neurodivergent Leadership, Masking, and the Hidden Cost of High Performance
Emma Cowsill
Two decades in corporate. One late AuDHD diagnosis, and the workplace design principles that make work better for neurodivergent people and everyone around them.
For twenty years, Emma Cowsill was the person who got things done.
She took the difficult conversations. She hit the targets. She got promoted fast: one of the youngest managers in her first company, running a call center within two years of joining as an online advisor. And every single weekend, she crashed so hard she couldn't form a sentence.
She thought it was her. That she needed to try harder, get more organized, be more present. She had no idea she was running a brain that nobody had ever explained to her.
A late diagnosis of ADHD and autism, now AuDHD, didn't fix anything. It just finally gave her words for what had been happening all along.
Now Emma coaches ADHD founders and leaders, and runs neurodiversity programs inside organizations. Tune in for why that cycle kept repeating no matter what she changed, what a new job never actually fixed, and what she has found that does.
“Being busy and having purpose are not the same thing. And for a very long time, I didn’t know the difference.”
Key Takeaways
The things that make workplaces more workable for neurodivergent people tend to make them better for everyone. Clear agendas, protected focus time, flexibility that fits how people actually function.
Masking in corporate environments has a real, cumulative cost. It shows up in burnout, in relationships, in the loops that keep repeating even when everything else changes.
Late diagnosis comes with grief as well as relief. Both are real, and both need space before you start planning what to do with any of it.
When a manager is honest with their team about how their brain works, something shifts. The people around them feel like they can be honest too.
Most people have a sense of when they do their best thinking. Most workplaces don't build around it. Emma works with leaders on figuring that out and actually protecting it. The teams that do say it makes a difference.
Chapter Summary
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Emma opens by talking about what originally drew her to this work, and it's not productivity advice. For a long time, being busy felt like the point. It felt like what you were supposed to do. But when she pulled that back, both for herself and for the founders and leaders she works with, she kept finding the same thing: there are so many different versions of success, so many ways of building a life or a business, and most of them have nothing to do with being constantly occupied. For Emma, purpose is doing something that genuinely matters to her and being able to share it with other people. That's what she's building toward.
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Emma started by working one-to-one with founders, and found the work kept rippling outward into the organizations they were part of. The patterns were the same whether the person in front of her was neurodivergent or not. The position she holds firmly: neurodivergent-friendly practices benefit everyone. Clear agendas. A single place where questions live. Information that doesn't get siloed in one person's head. She asks: how could any of that not be useful, whatever your brain? She talks through the work she does with local councils, organizations running on legacy systems nobody ever actually designed, held together by institutional knowledge that lives in one person. Getting clear on what can't be changed frees up an enormous amount of room to actually move.
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The first thing that comes up when Emma walks into an organization: people are scared of saying the wrong thing. That's everyone, but it lands hardest on first-line managers, who end up as the buffer between the team and the rest of the business and are rarely prepared for what that actually involves. Emma talks about what that pressure feels like from the inside, and what she does first: take the responsibility for knowing all the answers off the manager, and build a centralized place for information and options instead. She also talks about what she keeps seeing in sessions: people who come to find her afterward and say they recognized themselves in what she was describing. People who'd never had the language before.
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When you come to a diagnosis late, whether that's in your thirties, forties, or later, you arrive with a lot. Relief, yes. But also grief: how did this get missed? What would have been different if I'd known sooner? And then: what do I do with this now? Emma talks about what organizations often do in that moment, which is the exact wrong thing: "tell us what you need." When someone has just figured out they've been operating without a map for decades, they don't have an answer to that question yet. They're still figuring it out themselves.
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Emma spent two decades in operations and transformation, and for most of that time she didn't know she was masking. What she was doing looked like high performance from the outside: quick progression, taking the difficult conversations, doing the performance management nobody else wanted to touch. She got promoted. She was recognized. What wasn't visible was what it cost. The weekends where she couldn't form a sentence. The energy it took to show up as that version of herself every single day. Looking back, she can see the ADHD and autism in all of it, the drive to prove herself, the rejection sensitivity underneath the ambition, the imposter syndrome that came with every step up.
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For Emma, the cycle ran for nearly two decades. Push hard, work all the hours, crash entirely at the weekend, not relax but actually unable to function. Then recover, build a new identity, move to a new job. Then watch the same loop start again, because none of the core behaviors had changed. She talks about not being able to work out why it kept repeating. Jen reflects on how much this gets disguised as ambition: the framing of "she's driven, she's a high achiever" covers a lot of what is actually depletion.
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Emma describes it as maintaining two people: the polished, direct, everything-under-control version at work, and the one at home who is exhausted, can't show up fully, and doesn't feel like herself. When those two versions start to drift further apart, she says, there's a part of you being fractured. And it doesn't just affect you personally. As a leader, it creates operational chaos: you overcommit because you feel like you have to do everything yourself, you can't delegate because your standards are so high you'll redo it anyway, and you're not actually effective at what you do. She also talks about what it's like to not have the language to explain any of this to the people around you, before you know what you're dealing with.
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Emma found out about her ADHD diagnosis two years ago, while she was still in corporate. The first people she told were her team. She came straight from the call and told them. One team member had disclosed during her interview that she was autistic. Another later went on to explore her own diagnosis, and told Emma it was because Emma had been so open that she felt like she could. Emma talks about why she made that choice: there were no other senior leaders in the business talking about it, and if she could change that for one person who was where she had been fifteen years earlier, that was worth it.
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Jen and Emma get into what actually shifts when a manager is honest with their team about how their brain works. Emma talks about the difference it made: suddenly they could have real conversations about what they were committing to, whether it was realistic, and what they needed from each other. The team that used to say they'd deliver ten projects and actually get six done started committing to six. Things moved. She also talks about the shift in herself: becoming more comfortable asking for clarity, naming what she needed, and finding that no one ever found it unreasonable.
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Emma traces the connection she found between ADHD coaching and lean continuous improvement, not as a professional overlap but as something that made intuitive sense. Both are about getting rid of what doesn't matter and protecting what does. She talks through what that looks like in practice: figuring out when someone does their sharpest thinking, then building the calendar around that instead of filling it with whatever arrives. Whether you're employed or running your own business, she says, you can still end up with a calendar full of things that leave you unable to think straight by Thursday.
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Most people have some sense of when they do their best thinking. The question is whether their calendar reflects it. Emma talks through the practical side: finding the windows where you do your best focused work, clustering similar tasks together, protecting those blocks, and communicating clearly with the people around you about why. She talks about how to frame that with a manager in a way that makes the case clearly: you'll get the best out of me when I can work this way.
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Emma cites a stat that caught her: the average UK office worker is interrupted every four minutes. Anyone who's had their thinking broken into knows what the restart cost is — it's not just the time lost, it's the whole re-entry into the work. She talks about the things she's seen teams do about it. No meetings on Friday. No meetings before 11am. And one team that tried something more creative: on Friday afternoons, written word only. If you needed something from a colleague, you had to write it down. She says you'd be amazed how many things can wait when people have to find a pen and paper first.
About the Guest in this Episode
Emma Cowsill is the only UK executive coach working at the intersection of neurodivergent leadership and lean systems thinking. With two decades in FTSE100 operations and transformation, and an AuDHD diagnosis that reframed everything, she helps ADHD founders and leaders build sustainable performance without burnout. Her approach: clarity on priorities, structures that fit how your brain actually works, and the confidence to lead authentically. Neurodiversity Demystified.
Website: EchoNorth.co.uk
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/emmacowsill
Instagram: instagram.com/echonorthuk
YouTube: youtube.com/@EchoNorthuk
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TranscriptBeing busy felt like the purpose
0:00
finding purpose. Where is my purpose? Searching for fulfillment. What what does that mean to you? That purpose
0:05
[music] to me it I think the first and foremost is that they are not the same
0:12
thing. And I think for a very very long time being busy felt like the purpose. It felt like the thing to do. And
0:19
actually when you scrape that away both for myself and for the people I I work with that there's so many different
0:28
versions of success. There's so many different ways of wanting to live your
0:33
life, wanting to run your business or to, you know, how you work. And for me, that that purpose is doing something
0:40
that I love that intrinsically matters to [music] me. And being able to share
0:46
that with with other people [music] and that is far more important to me than
0:52
just being [music] busy. Today we're going to be talking about
Welcome and the hidden cost of performance
1:00
performance and the hidden cost of it. What authenticity is and why it matters
1:06
to get to the bottom line to get to your goals. So I have Emma [music] Cow still here, an ADHD executive coach. She works
1:13
at the intersection of neurody divergent leadership and lean systems thinking. She [music] has two decades in FTSE 100
1:21
transformation, then an ADHD and autism diagnosis that reframed everything. She
1:27
[music] helps ADHD founders and leaders build structures that fit how they're wired so that they can scale without
1:33
burning out. Welcome, Emma. Hi. Lovely to speak to you. Yes, you as well. In this current season
1:40
right now, what are values that resonate the most with you? You know, you've already said one in
1:45
authenticity, but that is absolutely core to everything I'm doing. And I
1:51
think the other one is purpose over busyness. It's that permission to define
1:56
my own version of success and do something that truly lights me up. Purpose over busyiness. The one of the
2:02
biggest things searched finding purpose. Where is my purpose? Searching for fulfillment. What what does that mean to
2:08
you? That purpose to me it I think the first and foremost is that they are not
2:15
the same thing. And I think for a very very long time being busy felt like the
2:20
purpose. It felt like the thing to do. And actually when you scrape that away both for myself and for the people I I
2:27
work with that there's so many different versions of success. There's so many
2:34
different ways of wanting to live your life, wanting to run your business or to
2:40
you know how you work. And for me that that purpose is doing something that I love that intrinsically matters to me
2:49
and being able to share that with with other people and that is far more
2:54
important to me than just being busy. What a gift and what a realization of
3:02
going through the motions and realizing the meaning and the purpose behind the
3:08
why and the importance of life and how you define it right now how you should
3:13
define it. Yeah. When we were chatting you originally thought you would work more with
3:19
individuals and then it turned into so much more. I because I think there's a big need. What does that tell you about
3:24
the need or or what you're finding in the space now? I I think the thing that came out really quickly is I I love
3:31
doing onetoone work. I absolutely love it. I think you can get to a a depth and
3:37
and a level of trust that is very different in a group setting. It is also tiring in a way just in a way that
3:44
expending energy in in any kind of way does but it turns into something bigger
3:49
cuz I I kept seeing that same pattern. So whether it's working onetoone the
3:56
founder in front of me or the organization they're part of it starts to to ripple outwards and I come at it
4:03
very much from a neurody diverent lens because that is my experience and that is the you know the I hate using this
4:11
word journey that I have had but I think whether you are neurody diverent or not the same can still be true
4:18
and definitely for me I think the the hill I will die on is that neurody divergent friendly practices benefit
4:23
everyone. Because there is no one who would be disproportionately
4:28
put in a worse place by having clear agendas, by having things that consolidate everything together, by
4:34
having a central point where all the questions are. How could that be? How could that not be a good thing for you?
4:40
Whether you are near or not, whether you're working on your own or not, or you're part of a big business. And
4:45
everyone's trying to fit into this structure. And some of the some of the
4:51
um organizations I work with are are local councils. So they will have been set up a very very long time ago. So
4:57
they'll have really old legacy systems that don't talk to each other and all the processes have been figured out by
5:04
Janet who's been there 40 years and it's all sort of been we woven around there. No one no one would that's not designed
5:11
with anyone in mind. It's just kind of grown and not kept up in some ways. So
5:17
that one to many gives me the chance to work with similar patterns but being
5:24
able to make that change at broader levels. Yeah. And it almost seems like the
Why inclusive design helps everyone
5:29
systems for systems sake in terms of a diff a past way of thinking and it's
5:34
like at least just have asking the questions like why not try this? Why not
5:39
do this? is helpful for one person, but it's helpful for many people in different ways. And it at least allows
5:46
people to come forward and realize that there's not just one way to do it and it
5:52
could be efficient, right? You have that background in terms of the lean systems
5:58
and the operations. I'm I think it's an important time
6:03
because I I see people are seeing that for the first time. They're they're questioning things. are questioning
6:09
systems the way it's been done because one, it's probably not efficient anymore, especially with the exponential
6:16
change of of technology and and the interconnected world and two, has it
6:22
actually benefited everyone or was everyone kind of quiet throughout it and just abiding the system because it's the
6:30
system? Yeah, absolutely. And I think the I won't bore everyone to death with with lean, but basically the two components
6:37
of it are reduce waste and maximize value. And I think an awful lot of
6:42
businesses right now are really really trying to do the right thing, but they are worried about costs. They're worried
6:49
about how how to go about doing that when everything is already so busy. Like how do we stop doing that and start
6:54
doing something else? And for me, that's not what it it's about. First of all, it's really not really not a nice to
7:01
have. It's a fundamental change of looking at inclusive design rather than on an individual level. But the first
7:09
thing you would do with any of them is look at what is the stuff that you can stop doing? What are the things that
7:14
waste so much time or why do we do this? Why like why is this set up this way?
7:19
Have we tried to do anything else? And I think once you can work out what are the core non-negotiables, the things that
7:25
can't be touched i.e. you have phone lines and they need to cover this time to this time and you need roughly this
7:32
many people. Okay, cool. What what then is up for grabs? Because if you are going to look at flexibility for other
7:40
people, why wouldn't you offer it to other people as long as it's within the
7:45
it makes sense for the business and makes sense for the the the individuals. But yeah, once you can figure out what
7:51
are the things that are not nailed down, you've got an awful lot of freedom and actually things get done quite quickly.
7:57
Yeah. And the the fact that you're you're doing it for the reasons like the
8:02
freedom, like the flexibility, like probably the growth of the business. I'm sure that's the why. And as we go into
8:09
maybe that before part of your your life when you were in those moments to help
8:14
paint a picture for people I guess one what does that look like from a lens say
8:22
in a business when people are asking for help even if it's from an efficiency
8:28
standpoint even this is when you're just starting I I guess what were they looking for was it growth like was it
8:33
something else what did they think they wanted to get and I'm sure there's or
8:38
other benefits that came from it. For for businesses when I've gone in to see them.
8:43
Yeah. Um I mean fundamentally it's the first thing that comes up is people are scared of saying the wrong thing and that's
8:50
everyone in the business particularly first-line managers and I have done the giant the job of a first-line manager
8:55
and it is truly the gift that keeps on giving. It's not just managing the team. It's you become people's therapist. It's
9:01
all it's the meta job that gets stuck on top of it that no one ever understands that's what they're going to be doing
9:06
when they first become a manager. But they are put in such a a pressing position because they are then that line
9:14
between the frontline team members and usually the rest of the business. So it
9:20
can be quite a sharp edge and people really don't want to get it wrong. They don't want to they don't want to upset
9:26
people. They also don't want to feel like they're being taken advantage of. So they can feel quite vulnerable and I
9:34
think one of the first things I do is look at how do we support those managers and really get them confident that they
9:40
don't need to know all the answers. They absolutely don't. There's some different ways we can go around sort of questioning and making sure that that
9:47
team still feels supported but actually it's not their responsibility to know
9:52
more medical facts than a doctor would or to be able to understand different sort of rules of engagement. That's the
9:59
responsibility of the business and almost take that bit away from them and then have a centralized place for these
10:05
are the options that people can have but also again you are going to have so many
10:10
people that maybe haven't disclosed things or don't know the amount of times
10:16
I have been in sessions and people have come up to me afterwards and just gone I think I have some things to go away and
10:23
and look at for myself because I'm recognizing things you're talking about in myself in
10:29
my children and you know in my family and it gives them that language to go
10:34
away and do that but it's if if if you are coming to diagnosis late in life you are already coming in with the how did
10:41
this get missed for decades like wouldn't what if I'd known about this sooner and and all of that relief and
10:46
the grief that's a lot of big questions so for people to then go tell us what you need you're like I'm still figuring
10:51
that out myself like I don't have a Scooby-Doo what have you got and it's it's such a a big sort of thing and Then
10:58
the flip side of that is businesses going, "Well, what if people want this? What if people want to work remotely all
11:04
the time? What if people want to do split shifts? What if they and all of these questions start to pile up?" And
11:10
and that for me is the point where you go, what if we did? But what if it
11:15
didn't matter? Because if more flexibility for most people is never
11:22
going to be a bad thing, it creates more opportunities whereby working parents
11:27
who were really struggling to do the school run now maybe can do that because they can do work in the morning, they
11:33
can then go and do the school run, they come back. Like it it fit work fits around their life. It can it can
11:38
complement rather than be something that you that you have to choose one or the
11:44
other. And it's all very well and good saying, well, you know, give that to someone else. But that relies really
11:50
expects that you've got another partner or caregiver or parent who could do that or afford wraparound care or all the
11:57
things that then become extra things on top of that that no one's in a position where they can spend more than they've
12:04
got right now. Yeah. Wouldn't it be easier if we just have that? It brings the human element to it,
12:10
right? The acknowledging the fact that we have our work, we have our home, we
12:15
we generally, you know, it sounds like people want to do the right thing. I mean, there's a fear of being wrong or
12:21
of judgment or of trying having the best intentions and still being quote unquote wrong or maybe offending someone by
12:28
trying to do something different. And these are the things like reputation and and and even the fear the vulnerability.
12:36
I mean a lot of that that's also scary of getting in the way of that. But it sounds like that it's yeah it goes back
12:45
to people want to help but they're they don't they're on the cusp of how. And I
12:51
would like to peel back the layers a bit from your side of things. I would love to go
12:57
into the tangible part but also the meaningful part first with you of why
13:02
does this matter to you and how is this important maybe in your life I won't say journey but your experience of getting
13:10
to this point through corporate through all of those years yeah definitely so I I was thinking
Two decades in corporate: the praise and the invisible cost
13:16
about this the other day working in neurodiversity and with neurody divergent people and I am neurodyiverent
13:22
myself has now become such a central part of my life but if you ask me six years ago, I wouldn't like I wouldn't
13:29
have had any information. So I spent the last two decades in varying different
13:35
different industries across sort of telecoms and our automotive industry and even travel. But my background is
13:41
operations and transformation and I got into things very quickly and quite
13:48
early. I was one of the youngest people to be promoted into in manager in in my
13:53
first job. And I definitely felt this desire to prove myself, to want to be
13:58
taken seriously. And it's all right when you can look back and sort of pick those pieces back together. And and actually
14:04
part of that was probably RSD, rejection sensitivity. And that feeling that when
14:11
I've talked to a lot of neurody divergent people, that feeling of maybe not being a a proper grown-up, you've
14:17
got to this sort of stage and you're like, "Oh my god, I am I am getting a salary. I am responsible things. I've
14:22
got to get myself like that still feels quite overwhelming. So to then have responsibility feel, you definitely
14:29
start to get that imposter syndrome coming in. But I forged this reputation for being the person who got things done
14:36
because I worked out very quickly. That was such a huge benefit to my manager and to other people in in that sort of
14:43
leadership team that that was the way you got recognized. So I would do the difficult tasks, the things that people
14:50
didn't really want to do. I would take all the difficult conversations. I would always end up with the attendance and
14:56
the performance management stuff to do because I was quite comfortable with doing it. And that looked externally
15:02
like a very very quick progression from being an online advisor to running a
15:08
call center within 2 years. And that got a lot of external recognition. But what
15:14
it took from me was invisible and I probably didn't clock it for for quite a
15:20
few years later because it felt like that is what I saw other people doing. I saw other people running a million miles
15:27
an hour and that was how you that was how you got success. That is how you got promoted. That is how you sort of kept
15:33
moving. So the cycle for me over those you know like I say best part of
15:39
two decades was push really really hard, work all the hours, be a complete
15:45
cabbage at the weekend for one of a better term because I just I couldn't like I couldn't do anything. Like if you
15:52
asked me what my hobbies were, I'd be like, I don't have the energy for hobbies or doing anything else. I would just barely move. I I couldn't construct
15:59
sentences. And I would just crash at the weekend. And I'd do that for years and years and years and then completely
16:04
crash out, recover, get myself dust. I've got my new identity. This is what
16:09
Emma's doing. I'm in this era. I'm doing this. Move into a new job. And then the cycle would repeat itself cuz I wasn't
16:16
changing any of the core behaviors. So I couldn't work out why it kept doing
16:21
these loops over and over again. That's really resonates and I I know it probably resonates with a lot of people
16:27
that how would people know you know you do what you're told success is this right? Society says success is this
16:33
whether it is you know university whether it is going and getting the promotions at the job I mean promotions
16:40
more money it's only helpful to the family in the downstream of things but at what cost? At what cost of self and
16:47
what cost of having the weekends when that you gave everything and the it's
16:54
it's not not just working to relax on the weekend just that's the only way to sustain to continue to do the bare
17:01
minimum at work let alone the expectations of what should be done and
17:06
I think this conversation allows your your point allows other people to recognize that in themselves of of it's
17:13
okay to understand what is and say you I
17:19
think it's masked under ambition a lot. is masked under high achieving and ambition of of going and going and going
17:26
and yes goals are great and it's good to have those goals but I think it nails it
17:31
what you said at what cost you know at home do you have any time for you I didn't have hobbies there was a time I
17:38
worked at a startup company and it was live breathe dream sleep the company and
17:44
to me I'm like that's what people do and I got I I didn't have any hobbies I mean my hobby was going to the gym I at least
17:51
I had that system but that's not that's like the maintenance part that kept me to do more work which is
17:58
wow when you were going through those processes was there a point when you started
18:04
realizing the pattern where you started seeing oh okay I see this trend and to
18:11
try to change it there was but I think certainly the early on I could only see that the only
18:18
problem was me I needed to try harder to push more, be more organized, you know,
18:23
but also be more present at home because the cost to the relationships in my life
18:29
of friends and family was huge. But also, you know, you you I think you said
18:35
yourself about that cost of self starting to clock that actually having to maintain two versions of yourself is
18:42
knackering because you've got that sort of orchestrated
18:48
high perform direct perfectionist that I think I can't remember it's Bnee Brown
18:54
who talks about that sort of I think it's a an advert in the States for for deodorant for women that said you do all
19:00
this and but never let them see you sweat and that it did more for making you feel worthless than anything else.
19:07
But be completely bulletproof because you can't show emotion. You can't get too close to people in work because
19:12
you've got to be this very, very polished version. But then you've got this other version that is exhausted for
19:19
a start, doesn't feel authentic because you don't feel like you can actually
19:24
show up as yourself. And when they start to drift further apart, that's there's a
19:29
part of you being fractured. And that is incredibly uncomfortable and then being
19:35
to having to switch between the two just becomes really really difficult and it's
19:40
not just you if you've got a team if you've got you know I'll talk about the work sort of rather than home but if you've got a team around you you are not
19:47
at your best self as a leader in that because it's creating operational chaos.
19:52
You're overcommitting to stuff. You can't delegate it cuz you feel you've got to be if you want something done
19:58
I'll do it myself type thing. You you can't hand things off because what if they don't do it to the level that you
20:03
would do and then you've got to do it anyway before it gets put in. Yeah. It's you are not being effective at what
20:09
you do. And this you were going through a lot of this was this before understanding your own diagnosis.
Living without language for your own experience
20:17
So can you help listeners with that? This was very resonating with me very
20:24
much because I blamed me for a lot of things that I didn't know the whole
20:30
scope of things RS you mentioned. I think for people listening, do you mind explaining from maybe a neurody diverent
20:37
lens or from a your lens what those pieces were that you were going through
20:43
and what it felt like before even knowing that there's this whole other lens to it that could explain things.
20:50
But at that time you're just trying to do your best and you're trying to tweak
20:57
things and be, you know, self work on your performance and all these things
21:02
that you're trying to take control of yourself as if it's a you thing that you
21:07
can't outwork. Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny enough that you definitely get to a point where the
The lockdown quiz that changed everything
21:14
things that used to that you used to be able to power through just can't do it. And quite often that's your your body
21:21
saying no. It's your relationship saying no because people don't understand how you're
21:27
behaving and you don't have the language to explain it to yourself let alone to someone else that's very very difficult
21:34
to do but when you start to get those answers and and I can remember it was lockdown and lockdown gave us all way
21:40
too much head space and like the amount of sort of things that you started picking about and still I think a lot of
21:48
people's experience of lockdown was very different some people stopped work completely some work got more full on
21:54
and I remember there was a was a group journaling task that people were running on LinkedIn where you dialed into a Zoom
22:01
call and it was muted and you were doing some prompts and I thought oh cool like this is a nice good routine it's the
22:07
same time every morning and one of the prompts was what emotion are you sitting with right
22:14
now and I don't know if it was just you know lockdown been going on for a while by that point so this is not a it's over
22:20
in 4 weeks like we were in good 6 months by then and everything felt very bleak. I don't know if it was that or I was
22:27
tired but I can remember looking at that page and just bursting into tears cuz I couldn't think of a single thing that
22:33
would explain my emotions and I couldn't I just couldn't put a word to it at all. So
22:40
obviously what I did was Google it because Google would know what I'm thinking and feeling.
22:45
Yeah, of course. And then the first thing that came up was an autism quiz. So I was like, "Oh,
22:50
okay." Right. That's I've I'll bite. So I went into that and ding ding ding came out with a very very high score. And I
22:57
can remember sending a screenshot of it to my friend and she was like, "Oh, don't worry mate." Like anyone could
23:03
anyone could do that. Like the questions are weird and what have you. I definitely think she's on the spectrum.
23:08
But it started to really niggle away at me and start making me ask questions
23:15
that were just like cuz at that point I had no concept that women could be
23:22
autistic. In my head autism and ADHD is things that boys had. I didn't even know it's
23:28
something that could exist in adults, let alone in women. I had two very clear stereotypes. And ADHD was naughty boys
23:34
hanging out of trees. and autism was, you know, Rainman style can draw the
23:42
Eiffel Tower from memory or recite the decimal places of pi up to like two like
23:47
just things that are very very nuanced. And I think it's, you know, thank
23:53
goodness for social media. It's there's lots that's maybe problematic with it, but in terms of sharing information and
23:59
people's lived experiences, I think it's I think it's incredible. And obviously the algorithm knew what I was looking
24:06
for and and kept showing me videos of this is how ADHD shows up in me as an
24:11
adult and things that I just kind of went, "Oh, oh god." And then I went down a rabbit hole of listening to all the
24:17
podcasts looking for all the looking for all the stuff. And it really started to answer questions of things that I either
24:24
thought everyone did and they don't or I thought was just me and was really weird, but actually turns out it's got a
24:32
specific name and it's a specific trait. And you know that that was 5 years ago and it's I'm still on that journey of
24:39
discovery. I don't think you ever stop because I think what we know and what we understand evolves but also once you
24:45
start to put the pieces together like hormones and sort of social economic
24:50
sort of status and you know you now find that there's so many comorbid conditions
24:56
that you've probably got a high chance of having dyslexia, dyspraxia and all the other things. It's you just keep
25:03
wanting to to consume that. But that information itself was was hugely powerful. But then sent me into a
25:10
complete shame and and questioning I know from talking to neurodyiverent
25:15
people that you know that go through a similar thing which is is it or am I just again am I not trying hard like am
25:22
I trying to give a a medical name to something that's just my like how much is the ADHD? How much is just who I am?
25:29
And the other thing is if you start looking at the list of traits of autism and and ADHD, it's like the opposite of
25:36
a job description, isn't it? It's can you imagine going high employer and I was a project manager at this point.
25:43
Who wants a timelind project manager who's disorganized and can't prior like
25:50
it just felt like such a awful thing to want to have a conversation with work
25:58
about that that felt like a huge problem to try and solve. And you know I I think
26:03
for so many people that's then the next thing. What do I do with this information? like how do I explain this to people in a way that just doesn't
26:10
sound like I don't I can't hold anything together. Yeah. There's a lot of guilt and shame
26:17
and rewiring of what was once thought was true versus what is. And then it's
26:24
the is it, for lack of a better word, is an excuse? Is it is an excuse? Is it is it
26:32
is it my personality? Is it just me looking at it too much? So much so that
26:38
I'm like, you know, my my mind is picking up on those things for me because that's all I'm consuming. And
26:44
it's very hard to describe to to people that feeling because it's like you have
26:50
your whole life of what you thought and then a lot of times say it's in the
26:55
family as well. It's like, oh well that's just how we do things. But then you go to other families and other
27:00
situations like actually it's not. It's it's not and it's it's very hard to
27:07
explain that to people because it's like oh my gosh always stemming back to even when I was younger when people were
27:13
younger and they realized going back to the RSD of maybe I was rejecting myself
27:21
because I thought everyone was being mean to me but in reality there was a
27:27
piece of it that I was like oh they're just being mean to me I'm just going to block out everyone in my life and I'm
27:32
Like I just thought so many things for me from my experience and talking with others too. It's this unveiling of you
27:39
know it stems to like feeling good enough too of good enough and even in say in different systems right whether
27:45
it's the school system or the work system it's that disconnect so to speak
27:51
because I don't think it's talked about so like you mentioned the stereotypes you I think that's why this is so
27:57
powerful that's why what you do is so powerful because it is hard for people to comprehend because it's like
28:04
unveiling years and decad decades even of ingrained subconscious thoughts and
28:10
conscious thoughts of identity and society and structure like wait a minute
28:16
when I try to follow the rules there's some rules that aren't meant to be followed so to speak some society rules
28:22
that's why people are doing this like it's like people aren't choosing I think I mentioned at one point when I heard
28:28
roll your eyes I used to like look around like try to roll my eyes and once I realized it's just an expression I'm
28:34
like like so So many things just so many dots just clicked and I really appreciate you sharing that because I I
28:41
do feel people listening to they can relate whether they have a sense of neurody divergence maybe they do not or
28:48
maybe they just have their own mindset and challenges that are just inside
28:53
right and I think we don't talk about that and then from that point on for the people trying to help whether it is
28:59
family spouse parents and and workers knowing that there could be a whole
29:05
other dialogue, whole other things going on inside someone's mind that they're figuring out. So when you ask them five
29:11
questions about their day or about their goals, you know, maybe it's a bigger question than what we say it is. Yeah.
29:19
Yeah. And I think that's the the thing that has really made the difference for me. I said, you look at those list of
29:26
traits and just be like, who on earth would want to employ you? Actually the thing that helped me change that was
29:32
starting to think but even despite that these are things that you might not know because I have learned how to manage and
29:40
I use that I use that word very carefully because manage infers perhaps
29:45
fix and it's really not there is definitely an element of I have again go
29:51
to the systems built a workaround that isn't necessarily scalable or sustainable and might cost me an awful
29:58
lot and having the language for that because people would think I'm incredibly organized but it's only
30:03
because I'm organized cuz I'm disorganized. If it is not in my calendar it doesn't exist. If my car
30:09
keys are not in the same place I could not tell you where they are. So I had built enough mechanisms
30:15
also quite rigid routines and that was definitely the autism and there are times that autism and ADHD can almost
30:23
balance each other out or at least compliment. But there is definitely and a lot of the time where they are at war
30:29
with each other and trying to do different things. You've got that need for structure versus need for I want to do whatever I want and I'm going to do
30:35
this today but not planned anything and then get guilt because you haven't done the things that you wanted to do. And
30:40
being able to unpack those is hugely hugely helpful. Also then to be able to
30:45
have the language to explain it to someone else particularly my partner and
30:51
say I have quite specific ways of doing things but that doesn't mean they are
30:56
the right way of doing things and if you want to do the washing and hang it in a
31:03
different way that is absolutely fine. I may well go around and move it afterwards, but that is not me telling
31:08
you you've done it the wrong way. I just can't help myself. And I do wonder if
31:13
I'd never had this information. You know, that's when I start to think about the relationships in my life, whether
31:19
you know it's it's partners or friends and family. And you know what might have been different if I'd known this earlier
31:27
and just been able to explain things in a neutral way that is not right or wrong
31:33
and it's not combative. It's that curiosity over judgment rather than
31:38
seeing something that doesn't look right to you and thinking it's weird or a
31:44
fight. Yeah. I think that goes back to when we talked earlier of people not wanting to
31:49
say something because a lot of times it's people just see things different ways. Like there's so many different
31:54
ways of thinking and communicating, let alone different backgrounds, different cultures, like all of these things we
32:00
bring with us. You know, if you go one place, it it could be fine to say something in another place, it's
32:05
offensive or even being too light, too polite in some places or too direct and
32:10
then that's a class just from that side of things. And I think it's it goes back
32:17
to people don't know what to say. Sometimes we don't it's it's because of that we think it's ourselves or people
32:23
think it's themselves or when say I have some ODC OCD tendencies with like COVID
32:30
had it it was really hard for me. I don't want to get too much into that but it was extremely hard for me from a germ
32:35
perspective. So, I would do certain things and then my husband would do certain things and I'd be having internal like challenges and challenges
32:42
is an understatement of some things and then people would think that certain
32:48
things are their fault. I'm like, "No, no, it's not you." Like, I'm figuring this stuff on my own. I am slightly
32:53
having a panic attack or certain times I did have panic attacks about things that seem so trivial to others. To me, it was
33:00
my everything, right? It was in that moment that was not good. And how how do you explain that to people? And you
33:07
definitely can in the moment, but I think it's that I'm reflecting it now. I think it's that like release of of
33:14
pressure and release of who's right or wrong because it's just different ways
33:19
of thinking and it doesn't it allows people not to blame themselves. Frankly, it allows partners, allows organization,
33:26
allows us not to blame it, but let's at least address it for what is. So at least we could be honest with each other
33:32
that no one's not right or wrong, but we can at least acknowledge where we are now.
Sharing the diagnosis with her team first
33:38
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. My ADHD diagnosis was first. That was two years ago, and I was still in I was in
33:45
corporate employment at the time. And actually, my autism diagnosis was just last month. So, I've got that as a as a
33:52
business owner. But when I had my ADHD diagnosis, the first people I told were my team. I came straight off the call
33:59
and into one with my team and just went, "I've just been diagnosed with ADHD."
34:05
And they went, "Congrats." I was like, "Yeah, I think so." And it was just really nice to be able to share that
34:11
with them. And one, you know, as I built that team, one disclosed when during her interview that she was autistic. And
34:18
actually another has since gone on to to be able to explore that but actually said it's because you were so open about
34:25
talking about it Emma that I wanted to be able to to go and look at other things and that is the thing I wanted to
34:32
do. I don't think you need to find meaning in everything but there were no other senior leaders in our business
34:39
that were talking about it. So I thought if I can change that for one more person
34:45
who's maybe where I was sort of 101 15 years ago if I can change that in any
34:50
way then that to me is a really really positive thing but for me I definitely
34:55
think it made me a better leader because guess what realizing my brain might work slightly different well that means other
35:02
people's do as well so maybe I don't want to presume how other people might
35:09
want to work or how things were intended and I think it allowed me to be curious and to again you know you say with
35:16
managers just about that sort of confidence of saying when you don't know something I think that does become
35:21
eventually when you realize you don't need to have all the answers and you you you recruit people that that do have the
35:28
things that you don't and that's how you get get a great team but I found myself really comfortable with saying I don't
35:34
know to do this or I might be asking this in the wrong way so I am open to you telling
35:41
this is not okay. But it was a really great period of discovery because I mean
35:47
I think by the end I realized most of us were neurode divergent in some way shape or form but what a brilliant thing to be
35:54
able to say to a team when we're planning work and go what do we need to consider when we know we're going to overcommit to stuff. Okay we need to
36:00
take that off right okay and what else are we committing to doing? we're going to make sure that we don't prioritize
36:06
other people's stuff over and how are we going to do it. It just allowed sort of really good strong dialogue around the
36:13
things that you might not necessarily admit if that makes sense. The we keep
36:20
saying we're going to do deliver 10 projects and actually we only get six done. So shall we just say that we will
36:26
do six in this period of time and plan it that way so that we're not trying to pull things back in and it it allowed
36:32
much more efficiency and you know being able to work at a much better output.
36:40
Yeah, it's it's a beautiful blend of systems, efficient systems and humanity
36:48
because you have the background right you've been in the system. you've been
36:54
in the system from a different perspective as well and then you're understanding the impact or even the
37:01
cost of say abiding by systems that no longer are work. I mean frankly I mean
37:07
maybe they work maybe they didn't work in the past but you're acknowledging that and then take a step further.
37:15
You're allowing people to be themselves and showcase their vulnerability because
37:20
why is that important? Because if people are vulnerable then if there's a big
37:25
deadline or or something even at in personal situations if there's something big okay now I have the psychological
37:32
safety I have the the ability to voice how I'm feeling as is like you said if if I keep committing to 10 every month
37:39
and that's why am I committing to 10 anymore it's not working if I could do six very very well and then that's
37:45
what's going to get the goals and that's what's going to really help then we're going to do that and you know what comes
37:51
from that six something else that we didn't even know was there. Something a gift that maybe a member that you're
37:57
working with or even say in a relationship a a gift of having a vulnerable conversation of I just
38:03
thought my whole life you saw it this way but turns out there was something else and I was taking blame for that.
38:09
It's like it allows the conversations and the humanity behind it. I I find
38:14
that so fascinating. Yeah, definitely. and more I think more
38:21
empowerment to advocate for yourself and for your people because if I then go right if I go to my team what do you
38:28
what one thing do you need from me and they go we need you to protect our time
38:33
even if it's just one day a week because we're getting pulled in different places that gives me the information to go back
38:40
with you know with a very good strong message that is I know a lot of people
38:47
come to my for this, this, and this, and they love helping you. What I would ask is that you're not putting meetings in
38:52
with them on a Friday, that you don't appear at their desks. If you need anything, please come through me. And
38:58
that communication allows things allows things to change. And yeah, like you say, it's it's humanity and and process.
39:05
It's where they it's where they come together. But it also means that, and I was thinking about this the other day, I
39:11
would have previously if something was unclear, I would have spent ages trying to fill in the gaps. You know, if
39:17
someone says, "Could you look at this before this session?" I'm like, "Do you want me to have answers for things? Do
39:22
you want me to have created a proposal around it? Do you want my critique on it? Like, what do you want me to do with
39:28
that?" But I would just go away and do all of those things. I would fill in all these imaginary gaps. And I then became
39:36
much more comfortable in going my brain does really well when it's got absolute clarity. So I'm probably going to ask
39:42
some some maybe frustrating questions here, but could you help me with this, this, and this? And I never once got
39:49
anyone going, that's ridiculous, why else would you need that? They're like absolutely happy to. And that helped
39:55
them understand what was clarity for me and possibly for other people who maybe didn't want to ask at the time, but it
40:01
just really helped make things move easier instead of just thinking I must be really sick cuz I don't know what
40:08
they're expecting me to do here so [snorts] I'm going to over plan. Do you mind explaining to where how did you get
Where lean thinking and ADHD coaching meet
40:16
from where you were working say in corporate and going through the motions and finding all of that the diagnosis in
40:23
yourself and I'm sure all of the the new thoughts that come from that. How has
40:29
that led to where you are now in what you do to help others? I think for me I
40:34
started very quickly to see a really strong connection between ADHD coaching
40:41
and lean continuous improvement and probably because an awful lot of those mechanisms will have been designed by
40:48
neurody divergent brains. But there's something really soothing but also quite clear about I'm going to use the really
40:55
boring things like streamlining and optimizing and all that but but it's just get rid of the clutter. just get
41:01
rid of the stuff that doesn't matter. And that [clears throat] might look like and it if you think about sort of to the
41:08
person who is in a corporate role and sometimes their calendar is decided for them and someone who's running their own
41:13
business and has complete control over their calendar. You may think they could look completely different but actually
41:19
they could still look like if you if you color code stuff they could still look like the rainbow like meeting back
41:25
toback meetings here and then like big proposal things and going straight into there without doing something else. and
41:30
you know the amount of people who run their own businesses who go I completely control my calendar why is it wearing me
41:37
out [laughter] like I left corporate to be able to do this and it still feels unmanageable and one of the first things
41:44
we do is what can we put together so that you're not task switching so that you're not going from having you know
41:51
broad conversations to trying to do deep work and actually when do you do your best solo work like the real sort of
41:59
nitty-gritty things. Is it first thing in the morning? Is it after lunch? Do you want to do it on Friday afternoon
42:05
when it feels like there's a little less tension? Find out what that is and plug
42:10
those things in first and then protect it like your life depends on it. And
42:15
again, if you are in an employed role, if you can get your manager to advocate for you then and you know this is when I
42:21
do my best work, it would be great if people didn't interrupt me and stuff didn't get put over there. You can have
42:28
your best intentions and and you know stuff will come in that is urgent that's absolutely fine. But if every single
42:33
thing that comes in is at crisis level then the problem is beyond the person and the team that is that's how a
42:39
business is operating and that's a much bigger systemic thing. But even just as I say finding the times that work really
42:46
really well for you and being able to cluster tasks. If you want to do all of your client calls on a Tuesday and a
42:53
Wednesday afternoon, put them in together. If you do that and actually think, I do it, but then I'm completely
42:59
wiped. It takes me out on a Thursday. Play around with it and move them about a bit more. And just
43:05
having that autonomy to be able to move your work around can make such a
43:11
difference in a person. And we're not robots. We We don't do, you know, are
43:16
you the same at 6:00 a.m. as you are at 6:00 p.m.? Cuz I'm not. Nope.
43:22
Not at all. And you will know yourself whether you are fired up in the morning and that is when you are sharp as attack
43:28
or that's don't wait me like leave me alone speak to me after 11:00 a.m. cuz
43:34
that's when I'll be able to give you the best part of me. And I think being able
43:39
to this is where language is really important particularly when you are working with other people because it's
43:45
this isn't a demand. This is a I do my best work when I can do XY Z. So you
43:52
will get the best out of me when I can do this. I appreciate it can't be every time but this would really really help
44:00
and you know work that around the team. Uh there's a couple of things I used to do particularly within teams in in
44:06
operations where it's putting as much friction as possible into the quick
44:11
question. Oh, could you just do this? And in offices it is rife. I saw a stat
44:18
the other day that said the average office worker in the UK is interrupted every 4 minutes and I just went
44:23
can you imagine and then you've got to refocus like anyone who's had their work
44:29
interrupted and then you've got to get back into it that start stop is torture
44:34
but I don't think that goes I think even if you work remotely teams will be going off your phone will be going off carrier
44:41
pigeon what have you like it is absolutely right people will get hold of you if if they need to. And one of the
44:48
things we used to do is just try and put as much friction much friction in as possible. So you'd have Friday no
44:55
meetings. That's everyone's time to get everything done or maybe no meetings before 11:00 a.m. And I had one team
45:03
that got really creative and you could they would pick a certain time or day
45:08
and it was maybe sort of like Friday afternoon. You could only communicate with written word. So, if you're in the
45:15
office and you needed something, instead of pinging it out on Teams or Slack or whatever you're using, you have to write
45:21
it down and then show it if you wanted people to do stuff. If you're at home, you know, you you take a a picture of it
45:27
and put it in the chat. And you'd be amazed what can wait when people can't be bothered to go and get a pen and
45:33
paper. Worked like a dream. They had so much fun doing it. And they would even check like how many things did you
45:39
manage to do that like that you would have asked? And it's fascinating to watch.
45:45
That's cool because you're you're bringing the fun to it. It doesn't have to be clunky. It doesn't have to be, oh,
45:52
this whole new rule like it can just fit and be fun and and it could make people
45:58
feel seen and understood and allow people to process things maybe in
46:04
advance notice and have that curiosity to also ask the questions of what else
46:10
can we do? How else can we do it? What what I'm seeing as themes is the curiosity
46:17
having the vulnerability. So whether that's in leadership or the the space
46:22
for that vulnerability within people and even in in personal lives having that
46:28
vulnerability and going into it with that curiosity of just because we're
46:34
having the question to make things more efficient to to tweak things to to improve things doesn't mean that it's a
46:41
personal attack. It doesn't mean that if we can let go of that and as harder you
46:47
know easier said than done but letting our egos go especially as leaders right like letting ourselves see it be in our
46:55
mind as our mind and be open to wow okay this person sees it this way and if I am
47:02
clear with Emma then she's going to help me with all these other things and it's
47:08
going to be that much more seamless so that in other ways we don't have to have as any meetings and we don't have to
47:14
have as many followup because I was clear and I got clear results back so I have I take out all those extra steps
47:20
and now we both can go home on the dot with a clear head. So I I think that
Protecting your energy like your life depends on it
47:26
those are extremely great tangible ways that people can take things into their day. Even if it's understanding where
47:33
your energy is high or where you have the most focus and for me it's being on airplane mode. Honestly like if I am in
47:40
a task I have to be on airplane mode. There's no quick thing. If it's a in a completely different part of my brain I
47:47
it's really hard for me to go there and come back to where it is. And that's just what it is. I have my Google set
47:52
up. So like my business Google Chrome has like all my business stuff and my personal one separate like when I have
47:58
the business one open no personal messages come through it's just business because it it affects so much and
48:05
there's certain certain outliers right like my husband or things if you need to call me I do have some blocks but you
48:12
know otherwise I felt like my time was given to everybody else and going back to performing and understanding really
48:21
why that authenticity matters. The whole point of the True Icon podcast is that is authenticity. I found that if we talk
48:29
about stuff that we're thinking in our mind or or we question things just for
48:34
what they are, it allows us to be more of ourselves and just be ourselves and
48:39
then we can all be ourselves and it's more light and free. So, how would you
48:45
right now? How do you stay true to yourself even maybe when the pressure to perform might sneak in? One of the
48:53
biggest things that I have found, and I think it took me a while to get this, but I'm I'm autistic and ADHD, and I
49:03
work with people who are as well. And it it took me probably a couple of months
49:09
to just sort of go I am still autistic and and ADHD. And just because I work
49:16
with with people who are and and I can help them, that doesn't take that doesn't take away my neurode divergence
49:23
and I don't need to be fixed. I don't need to be perfect because it's it it's
49:30
a state that I'm never going to achieve anyway. But I was definitely for a little bit early on when I when I sort
49:36
of first started the business. Not forgetting that cuz you don't forget that, do you? But it it was almost a
49:41
that's what I'm not thinking. That's what [clears throat] that's what I've probably sort of just let get away from
49:48
me for a little bit. So that is definitely how I stay true to myself because I can still be ADHD and work
49:57
really well with people who are and add a lot of value. And I don't think I
50:03
would have always been able to say that. I don't I don't think I would have always had that. I don't know what the
50:09
word is cuz I don't know if it's confidence, but it's I think it's more that that knowing of myself. And even
50:16
I've started with a you know a new client and I came off our first session
50:21
and ran to my part and just went I just like this was amazing. Like I I loved it. like just we click so well and I am
50:28
absolutely in awe of some of the things she's done and and what have you and but
50:34
I still know that we are going to do some great things working together that her being brilliant doesn't take away
50:41
from my brilliance and it felt incredible. It wasn't a oh god and like
50:47
oh if only I could do that. It was such an incredible feeling and and I think that's definitely that understanding of
50:52
myself and I think a lot of that comes with the work of being able to look at the times when you've been less than
50:59
perfect or much less than perfect and you know analyze sort of behavior over a long period of time and there's so many
51:06
periods over the last two decades and and and beyond that I probably could have dealt with myself in a lot better
51:14
compassion and understanding but I have it now and I am where I I am now because of that and I and I wouldn't change it.
51:20
So that that for me is how I stay true to who I am and what I'm doing and still
51:28
being ADHD and autistic doesn't change the fact that I can add incredible value and and be the thing I wish I'd had when
51:36
I first started in business. That grace in self to do it. I mean, you you do so much for the community and and
51:43
I do from hearing this too see a lot of the things you were going through. You
51:49
are helping people at that point right now. You're helping people figure out that while learning, right? We're not
51:54
we're not all experts all the time, but like you said, like you helped someone real time and they told you like how
52:01
much you helped them. you allowed them to open up like planting seeds and you allowed them to go and either say how
52:09
they were feeling or try something new that they wouldn't have done because of that and and that's really huge. And a
52:17
followup to that based on the nature of the conversation, is there anything that
52:22
you let go or that you changed your mind on since maybe before or earlier on?
52:29
That's a great question. I think I wouldn't say I've let go completely, but
52:36
the thing I am actively working on is being that version of me that that I
52:43
wanted to over the last two decades. And and probably comes back to that bit
52:48
about values and authenticity. And it's having those constant check-ins whether
52:54
it's weekly, monthly, that are the are we adding too much stuff to our plate?
53:00
What do we need to take away? What am I? Because, you know, my my brain loves
53:05
shiny stuff. Oh, let's try this. I want to go and do this. Or I've had a great conversation with someone and they just go like I really wish I had someone who
53:12
could do this and I'm I can do that. Brilliant. And I can just go off on a tangent. And sometimes that is how the
53:18
magic happens. Like some, you know, absolutely not saying switch that off
53:24
but your time is finite. Your energy is finite. And if you are adding something,
53:29
what are you taking away? It's not something I've I would say completely let go of. It is a it's a very active
53:37
deliberate act for me at the moment because it's so easy when you have
53:43
worked in a certain way for so long to almost default to that and almost defer
53:51
this this version of what you want. you know, when I when I get to X or when I
53:56
do to X, I will I will then not work on a Friday afternoon or I will go to the
54:01
gym on my lunch break or no, like do those things now because it's so much
54:07
more difficult to to break that habit and routine later on.
54:13
Start as you you mean to go on and that's whether you're building a business or whatever it is that you want
54:18
to do. Don't exter like don't delay that thing
54:23
that you want because it's it feels very far away cuz we only have two sort of time things. So it's either right now or
54:29
some indeterminate time in the future and it's very difficult to then get things to connect up if you haven't got
54:37
that purpose moving forward. And and I think that's important because we always talk about doing new things.
54:44
So that's why I was curious of well you're right we only have so much time right and now and not now is definitely
54:50
a thing and how can we take what we do have now and build the systems in place
54:57
to help us when we're in the parts where things are hard you know that I call it
55:03
like a wave like a a graph that goes up and down of we have really good po moments and full of momentum in life and
55:10
then they're followed by challenges and we could be followed by one really high moment from really one really low moment
55:16
and it keeps fluctuating. But I do believe that it's our systems that help us in those challenging times that help
55:23
us to continue to instead of just going up and down, we're going generally up towards growth, but there are the up and
55:29
down, but you're generally going up. So those are key. And as we wind down this
55:36
conversation, is there anything that I haven't asked or anything that you would
55:41
like to share that could be helpful to people who are or people or
55:47
organizations who either want to help help people own there now like stop
55:53
performing and own themselves or maybe someone who's at that point where
55:59
they're performing. Yeah, I think definitely for organizations I would ask
What Emma wants you to know right now
56:04
who's in the room when you're making decisions and who's not getting a voice. And actually there's I used to do it in
56:12
a in a leisure group I was in where if you've ever done sort of insights or disc profiles or any of the psychometric
56:18
tests where we all we knew there was there was a gap. So we used to have a like an empty chair that we would call
56:25
whichever one was missing and it would draw our attention to it. So okay that's
56:31
what we would do. What about someone else and it was a very very helpful reminder. But I think if you're then
56:37
considering how do we do something? How do we implement something like how who
56:43
is in that room? And then the second part is the accountability. Okay. And and how does it get seen through?
56:51
Because lots of people will have been in all the focus groups where you've encouraged to tell us everything that's
56:57
wrong and we will take it away and that's great and you can't do everything but you do need to go back with
57:03
something. You need to be able to say out of everything these are the top three things and this is what it looks
57:09
like and if you can bring them on the journey that's that's incredibly powerful and I think for individuals I think go
57:17
back to what we sort of said at the start that being busy and being successful aren't the same things and
57:25
it's very easy that sort of stress hamster wheel of doom to you know how
57:30
many times when you just are overwhelmed by the things to do that you just look at your emails cuz probably a couple of
57:36
quick wins I can pick out of there. It it feels like that productivity that is actually doing nothing. They're very
57:43
very different and yeah you will drive yourself bananas doing it I think if you don't sort of give yourself that space
57:50
to come out of it. Emma, it's been such a treat having this conversation. And for those listening, if you had some
57:58
sense of curiosity or it allows a space for you to be more vulnerable or allow
58:03
other people to be more vulnerable so that we can think about the busyiness that we're in and look at that purpose
58:11
or the reasons why we do things. I invite you to think about that from a deeper level. And if this resonated with
58:17
you, I invite you to share it with others or save it for yourself to go back to some of the tips and insights
58:23
that Emma shared with us today. Thanks so much, Emma. Thank you.
